You quite clearly have zero understanding of what your tax bill is actually paying for.

Why on earth would it go up another 20% in 4 years, forever, if the residents are not passing referendums to increase it by that amount, like they have over the past 4 years? Do you not understand that the majority of residents actually voted for these expenditures?

Is there anyone here with at least some formal education? Because, all I have seen so far is a lot of emotion, with few actual solutions being presented other than a shotgun 'cut everything from everywhere' mentality.

Short-sighted thinking got you into this situation. Why do you think it will get you out of it?

Tim,

Tim, you are right. Everybody voted for these expenditures, in one way, or another. Most people didn't vote at all. Many voted for the candidates with the most yardsigns, or advertisements out there. Then in turn, those who were elected voted for all the expenditures. With the exception of a few spending referendums, of course. The general public has been too lazy until it's time to pay the piper. It's at all levels of governments. As for my local solution, see my comments about getting involved in a contestable countywide race (Toftoy/Dabney). Here's a case where a 20% cut is doable without reducing services. It's a small start, but a start it is for those who want to be effective in getting thier voices heard.

Stephen,

I am ALL FOR exact solutions, as specifically you mention.

However, if you peruse the similar threads to this, you will see nothing but emotional rhetoric along the lines of 'cut it now, and figure it out later'. Which, lets be honest, is EXACTLY the same as spend it now, and worry about paying for it later. It will lead to exactly the same problems in the end.

Rushing into a problem is not going to solve anything, and will more than likely make it worse. Unfortunately, those 'revolting' to apply 20% cuts across the board have no idea what that would do to their property values, and the services provided. They don't understand how interconnected their lives are, and that if the roads get plowed less often in the area, there will be more car accidents, which will lead directly to you paying more for car insurance(even if you never get in an accident yourself).

Cutting 20% from the fire district will do exactly the same thing to their homeowners insurance.

I have yet to see one coherent answer by any of these protesters as to how they will rationalize cutting 20% from the highway department, when it is already so underfunded that bridges are collapsing.

Long on rhetoric, short on thinking.

Tim, I must say I appreciate your position and the logic with which you substantiate it. This is definietly a difficult discussion that is LONG overdue and your points are well thought out. Just as there are those who probably lack a deep and definitive understanding of exactly what this entails, so, too, is it necessary to keep people from making rash decisions that resulted in this situation in the first place. You are exactly right when you call attention to the idea of a band-aid solution when what is not being addressed is how we ended up here in the first place. I think a common denominator might be to consider whether Kendall County taxes are perhaps higher than they should be? Quite possibly. Is there room to reduce spending and make better financial decisions that result in savings? Most definitely. To your point, we need a solution that will curtail the need for increased taxes over an extended period of time; and, just like in a personal budget, find ways to pinch pennies and stretch dollars while still providing for our families. The obvious is this: not doing anything is not an option. Keep doing what you're doing - keep it all in check, keep it honest, and keep it human. These are real people with real financial issues - and the points you make here are necessary to make sure we're not simply delaying a larger issue later. Good work.

Perhaps a look to zero based budgeting instead of the traditional incremental budgeting. I use this for my home budgeting and it does force one to look at the details more instead of using last years budget and work upwards from there.

Just how many budgets are reduced over last years? As far as levy's, EAV's and such...this has always caused more confusion to the average tax payer. Generally speaking if the EAV goes down, the tax rate must go up to compensate for the loss. The one area that really helps is new construction, but look around...there's practically none.

"Do you not understand that the majority of residents actually voted for these expenditures?" Tim, in this regards, you're right...the majority of voters who actually voted. Especially in regards to D308. The tax rate was kept artifically low until the district couldn't sustain it, now that's been lifted, you can see the results. Since those living in 308 pay close to 70% of their tax bill to them, this is the only taxing body that can really make an impact.

I hate making a generalized statement but most people don't care about how much goverment works, spends or does until it's usually after the fact. (let it be needs of the fire, police, school or courts.)

I'm neutral right now as I'm still educating myself, although as I stated above, just what would a flat 20% reduction do and that's what I'd like to see.

Well truly believe what you want, but here is my thoughts on why a across the board 20% cut could be a big problem...

Lets use the Oswego 308 District as an example, you can find their budget here
http://www.oswego308.org/assets/5/finance_business/budgetFY12.pdf

It appears that via all sources the district takes in about 174 million dollars of that 120 million is local sources, so 54 million comes from the state and beds.. So take 20% of the local sources (24 million) off of that and we are at 150 million. Need to take the debt service out next 30 million (have to pay the bond holders) and you are at 120 million.

So next you have to transport some kids due to distance from schools, can't have people walking 5 miles to middle school (yeah I know everyone did as a kid) but the state says we have to do this so..... that is another 11 million. So we are now at 109 million

So now we can start spending with some decisions being made by the district. You spend 111 million on education, 15 million on maintenance and operations, an other 5 million on retirement/social security and 11 million on capital projects.

All told that comes 142 million dollars... So you have to eliminate 31 million dollars in discretionary spending...

Good luck...

I want lower taxes as much as the next guy, but lets think and cut, not just raw cut.

Oh, Henry T, don't go getting all logical with real numbers.

Seriously, there are definitely savings opportunities, but this comes off as a knee-jerk reaction to a high tax bill, not a well thought out proposal.

Great points Henry, we must carefully analyze what these cuts will mean. It is so easy to just say we don't want to cut teachers, etc. but when you read the budget and do the math, what will be the end result. Everyone wants conservative budget decisions, but to say cut 20% of everything means that a lot of stuff is on the chopping block that is not being discussed.

This is the way to have a public discourse on the budget. Present specific areas that can be cut. Has Dabney listed line item amounts that result in 20% cuts, hopefully he has so that everyone knows what will be cut. If he hasn't then I expect he should, so the voters know what to expect. Just saying you are going to cut is an old political tactic, but releasing a line item detail of all the cuts would be a great campaign move.

Dave, that's up to Mr. Dabney to find out where to cut. But I have a suggestion; I've seen where DeKalb County only has 50 hours of man hours in the office that are scheduled on a weekly basis. The Kendall County Coroner has 80 hours scheduled, weekly. Since Kendall, and DeKalb Counties have the same population, why do we need more hours of work performed? If Mr. Dabney follows DeKalb County's protocol, you now have a 20% in total spending, just in payroll alone.. I'm sure there are other items that Mr. Dabney can economize on, but that is the obvious palce to cut..

I don't have a single family member who is a public sector employee so I won't be adversely affected financially by these cuts. My tax bill was over $10K, so I'd be thrilled to see it go down, but I don't believe that a 20% reduction will not result in cuts in service. And cuts in police and fire and, yes, education, will adversely affect all of us.

Yes, exactly. I want to continue paying $8,000/year in property taxes so my uncle who works for the government can get free drinks when he travels for work. Typical response to anyone who doesn't agree, just question there motives and call them names. Obviously none of you rocket scientists have ever seen a government budget, because you could cut all travel, dining and training expenses and not touch even 1% of total spending. PAYROLL is the number one driver of government budgets, followed by capital projects/improvements. You people are dangerous in your ignorance.

I have never said cuts of any kind can not be made. Let me repeat it one more time for you.

I have not seen one single coherent plan being put forward, other than a generic 'cut 20% of everything'. I will never get behind the spouting of an idea that has obviously not seen the required thought put into it.

This is not a plan, it is a reaction. And good solutions never come from reactionary behavior. Complaining is easy. Spending hours on end pouring over financial statements, to be able to put forth a well-thought out comprehensive plan for each taxing body based on its unique characteristics, is hard. No such comprehensive plan has ever been put forward, and until it is I will never be in agreement with this referendum.

And just because I do not limit my conversations to artificial boundaries, does not mean I have a financial interest, or am on the county payroll. In fact, I have not collected a single public cent from anything to do with Kendall County. What I am, is a resident of the same geographical area as you, and when places in my same area start stirring about making poorly thought out decisions, I understand that it will have an effect on me in the future, either financially or socially. You do not live on an island, there are people that are affected by your choices that exist outside of your 'boundaries'.

I think all cost saving measures should be implemented. And if someone can release a plan that shows these legitimate cost saving measures are 20%, great. What concerns me is that there has not been, with a few exceptions, a line item discussion. I really think you have a winning proposal if you show, a detailed analysis of the 20% so people know what is on the chopping block. If, in fact, no teachers, police or firefighters will be cut, you will have droves of supporters. The objections I see are that cutting 20% from everything will result in necessary items being eliminated and essential services being impacted. Your challenge, is that if this means 45 kids in a classroom people will have an issue with that. I agree, cuts are great, let's make sure that they are the right ones.

Actually John, School District 308 is a 68.8 sq mile district comprised primarily of: Oswego, Plainfield, Montgomery, Aurora & Joliet. This school year D308 will service 17,500+ students, up 500 over last year. As Oswego's population grew over this time, so did the areas within the District Service area. D308 is the 9th largest in the state. Prior to 2001, we had something like 6 or 7 buildings, and today we have 22 in the towns named, except Joliet. Several have undergone renovations handle our growth, including our High Schools currently under expansion.

And to shift focus on general growth and infrastructure for Oswego alone. 20 years ago, this village was home to less than 4,000 people. 10 years ago, a little over 13K people. Today, over 30K people reside here, and though our growth has slowed considerably and values have reset, we are still growing, particularly in the eastern corridor.

As a frequent attendee at School Board meetings, I will agree that there is always room for improvement. Of late, our board alone can be held accountable to some of those budgetary mistakes. However, a generalized 20% cut at this time would be detrimental our school district. What is lacking in our area is Industrial growth, commerce - economic development. Until we take a realistic approach to this, we will not find a long term solution to our tax situation.

Unfortunately, those insane salaries don't add up to 20% or 40% of the budget. I agree wholeheartedly, cut the fat, but let's do that, and if it is 20-40% great, but if not, then let's accept that as well.

Leave the police and fire as is. WHY? They to good to pull in there belt a little. 5% is better than nothing. You dont think they piss away money ? Everything they do is needed? Get over this attitude that some departments can not be touched. ALL departments need to give in.

Ok, well in the bigger scheme of things, they get you one way or anther. Using your first example

Willaimson County TN --

First the income tax rate in TN is higher 6% vs 5% in Illinois and they do not have a standard deduction
http://www.tax-rates.org/resources/TennesseeIncomeTax.pdf

Also the property tax rates vary greatly in that County

http://www.williamsoncounty-tn.gov/index.aspx?NID=65

From 2.31 to 3.32 per $100 of assessed value (from the county web site linked above) depending on School District so using the $345,000 number. So we take 345,000/ 100 to get $3,450 take that number an multiply it by 2.31 you get $7,969.50 take that same number $3,450 and multiply it by you get $11,454 is that significantly better than Kane County?
Are my numbers wrong, please look at the links and see if I am getting something incorrect.

Or using a couple of real estate listings from that county

For sale for $249,900
http://www.homes.com/listing/131878260/2377_Fairview_Blvd._FAIRVIEW_TN_37062 Monthly Property Tax: $585.18 * 12 = 7,022.16

For sale 363,000
http://www.homes.com/listing/168872472/1409_Sarah_Anne_Ct_FRANKLIN_TN_37064
Monthly Property Tax: $677.60 * 12 = 8,131.20

Yeah it's lower but it isn't $1,838

So what am I getting wrong?

Also using Washington, MN 275,000 for sale
http://www.homes.com/listing/154486989/6314_Peacan_Avenue_N_OAK_PARK_HEIGHTS_MN_55082
$258 a month or $3,431.52 a year.... Also MN has a top income tax rate of 7.95% but it pays to be married so to speak

http://www.tax-rates.org/resources/MinnesotaIncomeTax.pdf

I think you better re-check your numbers Henry T. The assessed value of property in Tennessee is 25% of the actual or appraised value of residential property. So your numbers are only 400% too high it seems, And what exactly was the point you were trying to make? 345,000 * .25 = 86,250. 86,250/100 = 862.50 * .0231 = 1,992.38 annual property tax bill. In Kendall County, that same house would be 345,000/3 = 115,000. 115,000 * .1052284 (little rock township rates 2012) 12,101.27 annual tax bill. I am going to assume that both states allow an owner occupied exemption so thats a wash. So yes, you are wrong, only off by about ten grand. There are many of the other naysayers with false ID's who love to whip off web links from Wikipedia and the like but really don't have a clue what they're talking about, you all know who you are, please keep it coming, you are our best defense.

excuse me, the multiplier is 2.31 but the answer is the same.

Ok, even if it is 25% like you say... How do you explain the numbers from the real estate listings...

For sale for $249,900
http://www.homes.com/listing/131878260/2377_Fairview_Blvd._FAIRVIEW_TN_37062

Monthly Property Tax: $585.18 * 12 = 7,022.16

For sale 363,000
http://www.homes.com/listing/168872472/1409_Sarah_Anne_Ct_FRANKLIN_TN_37064
Monthly Property Tax: $677.60 * 12 = 8,131.20

I am just taking the monthly property tax number and multiplying by 12, logical IMHO.. For a house that is selling for $249,000 it has a property tax bill of $7,022.16 not anywhere close to $1,838, so even assuming the house is discounted $90,000 it is still over 3 times the number sited in the example...

Are the real estate people showing the property taxes as too high? What advantage would you get from that trying to sell a home?

Feel free to follow the links yourself, heck look up more properties...

I didn't realize looking up some data is trying to make a point, but if it is, I guess the point I am trying to make is look at these numbers yourself. Go look at the school budgets, the municipal budgets, how much of their revenues come from where. Those are questions I think people should be asking as well...

So if I were to say, well on average a Kendall County home owner pays 15,000 a year in property taxes you would just buy that? Come on people, do some research. It isn't hard.

So just to be clear, it appears I wasn't the tax bill numbers I reference come directly from real estate listings
So if you go to
For sale for $249,900
http://www.homes.com/listing/131878260/2377_Fairview_Blvd._FAIRVIEW_TN_37062
You will see a monthly property tax line in the property description (below it actually along with other data about the property)

Monthly Property Tax: $585.18

So I take that number and multiply it by 12
Monthly Property Tax: $585.18 * 12 = $7,022.16

So unless the real estate listings are wrong (feel free to browse them)... Those are the property tax bills for those homes, taken directly from real estate listings, no math on my part besides multiplying by 12

Great idea. I agree that cuts need to be examined and the examples cited of waste definitely need to be addressed. That is a positive and productive approach which will reduce overall expenditures.

It's called 'gentrification', and its happening to you. Voting on it, or talking about it isnt going to change a single thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

Personally, I am enjoying the irony of seeing those who were trying to prevent affordable housing from coming in to the county, and yet at the same time complaining that their taxes are too high.

They were warned that one day, they would be treated just like they were treating others. Deciding if someone should live in your town based on nothing but their income, is coming back to bite them when THEY are the ones on the receiving end of that treatment. You didn't care about treating others that way, what makes you think anyone cares that you are now getting treated that same way?

The sad part, is they did it to themselves.

Yes, because the definitions of words change based on where the site describing them is located;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentrification

Just because you can not(will not) accept reality, does not change that reality.

Thank you Kevin, don't waste your time responding the the naysayers, they are just babbling away hoping someone will listen to their nonsense.

Did you ever consider that maybe people WANT you lower income types to not be able to afford it and have to move out?

Russ,
If we were able to get these agencies to roll out a phased plan as you described I think we would be satisfied. Some could do this faster than others, but I agree with your premise for some "essential service providers".

Administration in schools, they can definitely use a 20% cut, lots of waste in the school system

Exactly which programs are you suggesting should be cut? Just so we can all be clear.

Bingo - here we have the perfect mentality of Kendall County residents.

"Who cares, let someone else deal with the problems we caused"

A drop in your credit rating is not a little thing. I don't think you are aware what double digit interest rates on your future issued bonds will do to your town.

Walking away from your obligations sends a CLEAR message to any business entertaining the idea of moving to Kendall... DON'T DO IT.

You keep right on thinking that using the same line of thought that brought you to where you are, will somehow magically fix your problem.

Not one single time have I seen the residents stand up to say 'we owe this money, and we need to pay it'. Just a long chain of trying to find a way out of existing obligations.

Tim - as a non-resident of Kendall County you sure spew your hate for everyone who does live here. Why don't you wash your footie PJs, clean up those cheese curls from your basement hideout, promise to quit playing your Ipod, and get out of mommy's basement to find a job?

Ah, personal attacks.

Does it bother you that I do have a job that allows me the free time to post here?

Does it bother you that I chose not to live in Kendall County when I built my house, because I took the time to look over the finances of the taxing bodies?

Does it bother you that all of your problems could be avoided if you spent more time looking at the already existing data, instead of trying to one-up people on a message board? How exactly is that going to help your bottom line?

And take notice, that I do not spread hate for 'everyone' that lives there, just those who are so blissfully unaware of the world they live in, that they think it is the responsibility of everyone else but themselves to fix it. You may have noticed that I pointed out that there are people who actually want the services they are paying for, and they voted for it, AND WON. You lost, and are being pushed out by those wealthier than you, whom I have no hate for whatsoever.

Either pay your taxes, or move. The bonds that need to be paid off aren't going anywhere for a few decades, so this 'reduce everything by 20%' shows just how unaware of reality this group is.