Why We Have a Spending Problem, Not a Revenue Problem
Since I began raising the issue of the county-owned-and-operated horse farm and banquet hall, many people have asked me, “What horse farm?” and “What banquet hall?”
For the last three years the county has owned and operated a horse farm, where they rent horses to people who want to ride, as well as a banquet hall. Both of these activities compete with private providers of these services. The private providers are paying taxes to support their competition. Both of these activities have incurred significant losses for each of the three years they have been operating. The horse farm also exposes the taxpayers to serious liability, should anyone be injured while riding a county-owned horse.
The best solution to this situation is for the county to lease these facilities to private operators. This would eliminate the problem of the taxpayers absorbing operating losses and would provide insulation from liability. The next-best solution for the horse farm is to cease horse rentals and allow riders to bring their own horses or rent them from a private vendor.
One of the Board members defends the losses from the horse operations, saying that we can’t expect to make money on everything the county does. The problem is that if something generates large operating losses and at the same time exposes us to serious liability, it drains funds from other county services. We taxpayers get to make up the difference!
Jillian Duchnowski
9:18 am on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
This issue recently came up at a candidates forum hosted by the Kendall County Republican Women. You can read the other Republican county board candidates' responses here: http://patch.com/A-q6ml
Jillian Duchnowski
9:23 am on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
And if you're not familiar with Ellis House and Equestrian Center, here's a link to the facility's website: http://www.ellishec.com/
Rebecca Roulo
10:49 am on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Mr. Becker,
The horses at the Equestrian Center at Ellis are NOT for rent. They are used for lessons and education. All riders sign a liability waiver, wear helmets, and are under the guidance of experienced staff members at all times. The Ellis House offers a beautiful outdoor venue for events. Have you been out to Ellis? I encourage you to do so, and please make sure you have all of the correct facts before you decide to post another article against such a great facility.
Michael F. Becker
5:07 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
I stand corrected on the hosre rental issue. However, there private operators who perform the same service. With the county offering it in competition, the private operator is still in the position f having a tax-supported entity as a competitor. The arrangement is still difficult to justify. Liability waivers offer little protection to the taxpayers. A person can sign one, suffer an injury and still file a lawsuit.
Tim
7:56 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
What competition? Can you list some of them?
I tried looking up listing on all the horse enthusiast websites, and there is only one other facility that bothers to list itself in the entire county, and it is on the exact other end of the county in Oswego.
There are no comparable facilities in the county within 20 miles.
Section 3-106 of the Tort Immunity Act (Ill. Rev. Stat., ch. 85) provides an immunity for claims based upon ordinary negligence.
Radloff v. Village of West Dundee, 140 Ill.App.3d 338, 489 N.E.2d 356, 95 Ill. Dec. 135 (1986), affirmed the dismissal of a complaint by a police officer applicant who sustained injuries in a physical aptitude test after having executed a waiver. Poskozim v. Monnacep, 131 Ill.App.3d 446, 475 N.E.2d 1042, 86 Ill. Dec. 663 (1985), upheld a dismissal of the claim by a plaintiff who was injured in a parachute jump/skydiving program sponsored jointly by various public bodies and independent contractors.
You were wrong about the horse-renting issue, and you are wrong about the probability of liability waivers to put the taxpayers on the hook. How can you make an informed decision about this, if the majority of the facts you are using so far are not correct?
If you want to successfully argue your case, you are going to have to bring your A-game to the table and present verifiable facts, and not just baseless paranoia of lawsuits, and overly dramatic statements of the effect on the 'competition'.
Tim
7:58 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
On the whole, the court decisions have strongly supported the legitimacy and validity of using the releases. See, generally, and for comparison, Larsen v. Vic Tanny Int'l., 130 Ill.App.3d 574, 474 N.E.2d 729, 85 Ill. Dec. 769 (1984); Sexton v. Southwestern Auto Racing Ass'n. Inc., 75 Ill.App.3d 338, 394 N.E.2d 49, 31 Ill. Dec. 133 (1979); Russo v. The Range, Inc., 76 Ill.App.3d 236, 395 N.E.2d 10, 32 Ill. Dec. 63 (1979); Kubisen v. Chicago Health Clubs, 69 Ill.App. 3d 463, 388 N.E.2d 44, 26 Ill. Dec. 420 (1979); First Financial Ins. Co. v. Purolator Security, Inc., 69 Ill.App.3d 413, 388 N.E.2d 17, 26 Ill. Dec. 393 (1979); Owen v. Vic Tanny's Enterprises, 48 Ill.App.2d 344, 199 N.E.2d 280 (1964).
Adam Engler
5:23 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Have you ever heard of Brookfield Zoo--owned by the Cook County Forest Preserve District; how about Danada Equestrian Center is part of the DuPage Forest Preserve District--do your homework before you take a stand.
Stephen Lange
12:18 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@Adam Engler - You are splitting hairs. Danada Equestrian Center - 16 Miles from Oswego, Brookfield Zoo - 36.4 Miles from Oswego. Hardly what a person would consider "local".
Michael F. Becker
6:10 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
The Brrokfield Zoo analogy doesn't work, since the Brookfield and Lincoln Park Zoos do not compete with any private entity.. A better analogy would be the airports--Aurora, Joliet and DuPage County. There all flight training and other aircraft operations are conducted by private Fixed-Base Operators, who lease their facilities from the government entity that owns the airport. The city, park district and airport authority are not in the aircraft rental, flight training or aviation support businesses. The financial risks are borne by the private operators, not by the taxpayers.
jerri powell
6:10 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Hello Mr. Becker,
thank you for coming forward to make kendall county a better place. Like I said before no one is perfect. We need better county representation. It is a thank less job filled with emotional abuse such as what is post. Thank you for your efforts.
Peace,
Jerri Powell
Michael F. Becker
6:16 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Jeri:
Your support is greatly appreciated!
Mike Francis
9:12 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
The posters above are throwing up red herring arguements. The bottom line is that we shouldn't be paying for their hobbies.
What percentage of the public engages in these sort of equestrian activities? I bet it's less than 1% for sure. Why in the world is taxpayer money being used to support something that 99% of us don't use?
Tim
9:50 am on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
No, the above posters are throwing up counter arguments to the red herring arguments that Mr. Baker is throwing up in 'increased liability' and his incorrect information about the very operation about the facility.
Mr. Baker is lacking on specific information, and is instead operating on ideology. The other posters have shown every one of his points as inaccurate.
You, as an apparent supporter of Mr. Baker, are also using made up numbers and facts(1% is only 1500 people). Luckily, most of the residents are not as selfish as you, and realize that living in a community means providing services and activities for ALL the residents, not just what you like.
The entire park district is taxpayers paying for others hobbies. Now, using actual real numbers, the expense per taxpayer is less than $1/yr for this center. I would hardly call that 'significant'. Maybe why that is why Mr. Baker leaves out these specifics, because they end up not being as dramatic as he is attempting to make them out to be.
As far as the competition, it is obvious that Mr. Baker has not even bothered to talk with them since the forest preserve head has come out publicly and said that others that provide similar services are saying this;
"owners of other nearby stables came by to support the horse operation recently, indicating they see it as a help to the businesses, not a hindrance."
So, Mr. Baker has no factual basis to close the center. Just emotional button-pushing. A true politician!
Clay Hamm
4:49 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Precisely
debbie granat
10:24 pm on Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Ellis competes in the same way that Hoover competes with campgrounds and preschools,and dog training facilities. Both forest preserve sights promote learning about and experiencing nature thru various activities. Come out to Ellis sometime and we 'd be happy to show you around,show you letters,cards and pictures of families,kids with special needs and people who have found a way to relax and enjoy nature. we offer lessons,camps,scouting opportunities and more .The fees for these activities allow us to open up on the 1st Friday of every month for families to have a place to come and play bags ,take a hay ride make a craft and spend unstructured time together.Kendall county is a great place to live ...it's places like Hoover and Ellis that help to encourage people to live here and embrace what we are proud of...our farming heritage and beautiful landscapes! Taxes often provide for recreational activities ie: band/ choir /sports/arts /clubs in schools,sports and MANY activities thru park districts, fireworks,festivals,concerts in the parks ..I could go on and on! Kendall County Forest Preserves are a great asset and well worth the $96 on my $8000.00 tax bill.With the stressors of the economy people need an affordable outlet..please come see for yourself and not base your speaches on hearsay.
debbie granat
10:58 am on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
Where is this "banquet hall" you talk about? I would be interested in visiting!.Ellis offers a concrete pad surrounded by a beautiful landscape,that people can rent out and arrange to have a tent put up for their event.These (mostly weddings) have been absolutely beautiful!The house alone can be and is used for smaller events.
Mike Francis
1:20 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
No one addressed my question directly. That is, why should we pay for facilities that support activities that less than 1% of the public get involved with?
I agree that our gov't agencies are providing way too many services that are enjoyed by very few people. At least with Park District classes, a class can be cancelled is someone isn't interested in an activity. And the various improvements like the different buildings can house a lot of different types of activities-- multi-purpose buildings.
This horse nonesense activity requires millions of dollars of improvements regardless of whether or not the public is using the facilities. The costs don't go away in the middle of the winter when the usage is way down and the improvements aren't being used for much else.
I can visit many of the parks that are owned by the Forest Preserve and find ZERO people at them. There are clearly enough parks in Kendall County based upon the fact that they're never even crowded to begin with.
Tim
10:42 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Parks are not supposed to be crowded, they are supposed to be open space for people to relax in AWAY from crowds.
Now, as to your made up numbers that you keep trying to use...
"Part of the 2012 budget includes $50,000 in revenue from Ellis and $183,500 in expenses for the facility, its staff and programs in the fiscal year"
That breaks down to $130,000 in expenses to the taxpayers, not 'millions of dollars'. Kendall county has more than 150K residents, bringing the grand total per taxpayer to just around 0.89c, PER YEAR. For a facility that has only been open for a few years, this is a pretty good example of growing revenue in an economy that has taken the opposite direction.
When I hear a board member running for a position come out publicly and say they will start to cut their OWN salary, then I will take them seriously. Until then, it's just meaningless politics and emotional button pushing.
Larry
2:57 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
This is clearly just election time politics. Pray on peoples fears of higher taxes to get yourself elected. The "Ellis" card has been played in past elections. Let's focus on some of the more important issues that effect the taxpayers of Kendall County.
Jack
7:43 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
I think Mr. Becker's thoughts break down into two key points:
1) The county shouldn't be doing what a private business can do.
You can point out other situations and examples where that has happened; but that doesn't mean it should continue.
There may be very few competitors to it (if any), but a county owned business is a strong discouragement for a competitor to emerge.
Ellis is a beautiful facility; and there is nothing personal against it, it just shouldn't be subsidized by taxpayers.
2) A county owned business opens us up to liability.
You can mention court precedents but as we all know that's not binding on a future jury and how litigious our society can be.
If God forbid something did happen to someone at Ellis, you can bet the county would settle before it even got the chance of going before a jury.
Either way, the cost of litigation or a settlement would impact taxpayers.
We must really ask ourselves; how many of the other candidates are being so candid and public (on the record) about their positions and why they're running?
That's why Mr. Becker has my support.
Tim
10:50 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
The cost of litigation brought by someone who loses their case, is not on the taxpayers, but on the one who brought the losing suit. I provided the litany of previous cases to get you started on looking this up for yourself, since it would take more space than patch allows for me to list the wording of all the decisions, and how they specifically reference the laws when it comes to waivers. In most cases, the lawsuits never see a jury because the judge will dismiss them, and order all costs paid by the plaintiffs. It is unprofessional to not even bother to read the information given to you that proves that your comments are wrong, and then continue to claim these incorrect ideas as possible 'what-if' scenarios, when there is no way in the legal framework for them to actually occur.
You can play 'what-if' games all day long, but the facts on what the courts do with liability waivers is really quite certain. Just because you personally do not know how they work, does not mean they do not work. That seems to be what Mr. Baker is going for, in leveraging the fears of those who are uninformed on the issues he is talking about(even more uninformed than he is, it would seem)
Jack
1:42 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Tim,
Unfortunately liability waivers are not absolute. If you think by signing a piece of paper that the county is absolved of all potential liability; then you sir are the one that is wrong.
It is one of the reasons we need tort reform.
debbie granat
2:48 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
anyone can bring on a lawsuit for any reason therefore every pond is a liability,every sled hill etc.. last year a tree fell on boyscouts camping in a forest (not in Kendall county) killing some of them.Things happen we cannot crawl under a rock and not enjoy the outdoor world because "something could happen".
Tim
2:53 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Jack,
Then the entire state is wrong as well. Up thread, I provided dozens of cases and the exact code and section of Illinois law and tort reform that provides tort immunity for exactly this situation, yet you could not be bothered to even read it?
If you want to have your opinions taken seriously, then you are going to have to bring the evidence to the discussion to back them up. Hopefully the voters will make decisions on the reality of the laws that exist in the state of Illinois, and not the opinions of those who don't even seem to care enough to read those laws.
Provide a single case that has gone through the court system in Ililnois that supports your assertion, and I will be happy to continue this discussion with you.
Jack
5:44 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Tim,
I would do more research; besides copying and pasting the case law list from a NIU article written in 1989.
On the same page that you copy and pasted from, it has this exact phrase:
"Release and waiver forms signed by minors are simply of no validity."
Liability waivers are a contract; and because of that a child cannot be held to a liability waiver and a parent can't cosign that right away.
Courts have ruled (with the exception of a few states) that parents can not sign away their child's right to sue for negligence; and because a minor can not enter a binding contract they can't either.
That article for everyone's reference: http://www.lib.niu.edu/1989/ip890322.html
Now is this situation like to occur? No; I have full confidence in the staff at Ellis and the work they do. But to say there is no liability is unrealistic.
debbie granat
10:32 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
The Forest preserve purchased a beautiful piece of property on the south side of the county. This area is relatively far from other preservers so it was warranted. The property is along a pristine watershed,creek and had an existing home ,barn and pastures.Just like at every other county property (not just kendall) people can come rent the areas (house,tent pad,) to hold family or other events.All shelters can be rented out at each preserve.Then the "renter" finds and hires any Business that they choose to hire ie : caterers,photographers,tent,chair rental etc....The forest preserve offers educational tours, classes,camps as well as keeping the grounds tidy for those who visit with or with out their horses.We also offer a room that can be rented for birthday parties,along with this we will include teaching the children basic horse skills ,grooming ,leading and they get a pony ride and make a craft.We teach the very basics of horseback riding,introducing people to the equine world,hoping and encouraging them to then continue at local barns once they know what direction they want to go.These lessons also help to offset any cost for upkeep of the horses ( which is minimal) .
russ harrison
4:02 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
I have an idea...why doesn't the forest preserve or the Park District purchase that piece of land off Rte 126 that the School District 308 owns? Obviously there isn't going to be a new High School there built and that land may be better used for our community.
mike ellison
12:42 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
Kendall County has a population near 115,000. I'm still convinced that less than 1% of the population is using this facility. That would be 11,500 people per year! No way do that many people use the facility and most of the user base would be the same people anyway.
The fact that such a small amount of the population uses the facility means that it should never have been opened. My logic keeps gov't from growing based upon facilities that are useless to 99% of the taxpayers, while your logic results in expanding gov't to an unreasonable size because there would be no end to what sort of facilities would be built for people's hobbies.
Golfers and horse people are really selfish in that their hobbies have to be paid for by other people.
Your cost estimates are only for the operating costs and ignore the acquisition costs of the initial land purchase as well as lost taxes from being a public facility.
Again, it's ridiculous for us to pay for a facility devoted to horses when so few people engage in that activity.
And Tim, you obviously have little knowledge about waivers. Businesses get sued, and lose, all the time even though waivers were used. Things like gross negligence come into the equation as well. The only effective way to reduce liability in a situation like this is to have a state law like Colorado does for horses and skiing.